No posts for a while. Really not sure what to say. So was kind of relieved to read this today - I actually thought maybe I was a bit off script on this issue initially but then Dangerously Subversive Dad puts it far better than I have when it comes to ‘American Bloggers scornfully prophesying doom and gloom for us 'Europeans'. In relation to the current illegals amnesty in the US, DSD draws some parallels.
“I hope our US colleagues will view this episode as a wake up call, and that in future instead of spending so much time telling us how we here in Europe aren't doing enough to fight the good fight, they will start looking at how their own great champions maybe are, when it comes down to it, politicians first and heroes second”.
The same point remains true on the issue of free speech which even if it isn’t officially ‘outlawed’ in the US seems to have led to pretty much de facto censorship everywhere thanks to a political lack of courage.
‘Europe’ is awake to a problem. But much like the US it has an issue with unscrupulous politicians or disappointing politicians. And always everywhere theres the left.
One of the charmers up there in the Old Bailey’s high profile terrorism case at the moment who worked so tirelessly with his British chums to ‘blow up the slags dancing around’ in the MOS (‘slags’ like me and my sister presumably), is in fact an American citizen, radicalised IN the US. He's not simply off the hook for being a supergrass imho.
With regard to perception and propaganda, the MSM and unheroic politicians, The Dick List made a great point. And Alice re-emphasizes this - how the media were handed their story on a plate by those same unheroic politicians (again) and that what was really useful to hear and understand was lost as a result.
posted by Alison @ 3:35 pm
26 Comments:
You are right, Rasta, it's just that a few of us have had it up to here with Steyn et al telling us what's good for us.
Slagging each other off will, in the long run, get us nowhere.
With all due respect to my British friends, can someone please refute Steyn? I realize he is very unpopular with his gloom and doom prophecies, but I've yet to see them refuted in a way that satisfys me or attenuates that gnawing feeling in my stomach that the great Western cultures of Europe are dying.
What answer have you for the demographic Muslim bomb that is going off in Europe?
Trust me, I want to believe Europe will be fine as much as anyone- my grandparents came from Europe and I visit often. I have family and many friends in Europe, and I devoted my college studies towards Western history and culture.
I've heard the comparison between Mexican and Muslim immigrants, but this ignores a major reality- Mexcians are Westernized and Muslims are anti-Westerners. Mexicans, given even minor immigration control, will assimilate. I firmly believe Muslims will attempt supercede and take over one day.
So please, can someone tell me why Steyn is nonsense? Beleive me, I'm not one of those Americans that enjoys thumbing my nose at 'decadent' and 'effette' Europe (except maybe France)- I really want to know what it is that gives Europeans cause for optimism?
Oh- and one more thing- another reason why immigration in America and immigration in Europe are totally different is because America is a country of amagalmated Western cultures and European nation-states are countries and cultures. Maybe its just the disney-world American in me, but when I go to England I want to see a Churchilesque John Bull in a Saville Row wool suit, drinking high tea, having a pint of ale at the Pub, eating fish and chips, etc.
I don't want to see Muhammed, Vlad, or Wang. I can see them every time I get into a cab here in New York. Do you understand my highly convoluted point? As European nations absorb these foreigners, something unique and great is damaged and lost forever (I dont mean to suggest racially, but certainly culturally). In America, there's never been anything to lose! In my idealism, I think Europeans should act as guardians of unique, ancient, and very important world-historical cultures. In other words, European nations should not try to emulate America when it comes to immigration- leve it to us to take on the world's human refuse, its whats been done here since the continent was setteled. After all, the extent of indigenous American culture is Jazz (which is HORRIBLE, btw), Fried Chicken, Gangsta Rap, Cowboy hats, Stock Car racing, Mormonism, and Brangelina.
Jazz is not horrible!
Blues. You forgot Blues.
Baseball.
Apple pie.
REAL football.
when I go to England I want to see a Churchilesque John Bull in a Saville Row wool suit, drinking high tea, having a pint of ale at the Pub, eating fish and chips, etc.
I don't want to see Muhammed, Vlad, or Wang
Tehehe
I think Europeans should act as guardians of unique, ancient, and very important world-historical culture
Hear, hear. You make some excellent points The List Administrator.
British comrades, challenge Steyn, email him, make it known! Challenge those Americans on JihadWatch, on LGF, dammit!!
I think you'd be pleasantly surprised the number of Americans who come to your aid. I know I have.
I really want to know what it is that gives Europeans cause for optimism?
Though here, I'd have to say our way of life WILL prevail. It's simple as that. It may take a few years to work out what's important to us, but it will happen.
Who need's to give us cause for optimism? We ARE Europeans! We fucked off facism and we'll fuck of Islamofacism. I don't deny there's a fight. But we're used to that.
We've also had fascism on home ground before. Oswald Mosely. We saw his lot off. Optimism isn't something we need to be given. It's innate.
L.A
Europe is becoming quite aggressive about stopping illegal immigration. Also the French as an example are much more willing to impose cultural norms on children in school which they did with the burqa, and to outright forbid the expression of ideas considered hostile to the Republic. In France, a movement of Arabs who might vocally seek conversion of France to Sharia would be prosecuted as they would elsewhere in Europe.
I disagree with you about the US assimilating its Latino population.
It is very difficult to see how a quickly expanding Spanish-speaking population, tied culturally by family and language to a neighbouring nation that has a long list of historical grievances against the US, will simply integrate as anglo Saxons and Europeans once did. It is far more likely that the rising Mexican minority, will renegotiate the entire US way of life. When I visit now I can see that. Looking at the May Day demos I can see that, when did European migrants ever beat on about ‘rights’, they were just grateful!. (In France btw the biggest May Day demo in Paris was from the FN who went virtually unchallenged)
I read somewhere and I cannot cite this that in the US, there is a strong ‘Reconquista’ movement moving to repopulate the American southwest with Mexicans, and revert transfer back to Mexico - zero loyalty to the US and little appreciation of the American Dream. All very much ignored by Americans at the present time.
Yes its certain that muslim minorities are flexing their muscles bolstered as they were after 9/11 by this gangsta al quaeda style mentality, growing in numbers and in self-confidence and in power – but many Europeans are upset about this, and frustrated with official inaction. Europeans are fully aware of their predicament.
There’s already been a noticeable movement toward right-wing, anti-immigration parties. Some of the guys in charge are pro-American now and some are frankly outwardly racist! But its an indication of frustration with the political norms.
The next generations will be absolutely critical, but…..Europe has faced a crisis such as this in the distant past and recovered once before. Yes we are at the behest of governments and political elites -just as you are- and to a degree that was the point being made here.
‘Europe is screwed’. ‘It is only a matter of time’. ‘Ignorance is bliss’. Is about the thrust of Steyns arguments. Compared with your pretty heartfelt comment here there is a gulf of difference between you and Steyn…
We wont roll over and die and I kind of wish Steyn would stop wishing it?
Second rather lengthy reply:
The calculations on birth rate are dependent on things staying as they are now and more often than not predications are not correct. These don’t appear to count in eastern Europe for example. Poland experienced a baby boom in the 1980's. An abundance of young people free to work within the EU and settle in the UK. GOOD!
The same demographic problem that Europe faces is also faced by America. The native US population is below the replacement rate in fertility. This is true in all of the industrialized countries of the world where globalization spreads.
Perhaps we should being critical of the system of pace industrial nations move at and balance this instead of beating up on welfare dependency as one of the single factors of decline. After all cost of living IS a factor as to why people don’t have 2, 3 or 4 children which is what would be required to reverse the trend in depopulation. With women in the workforce now comfortably contributing to a two income based salary the lack of their contribution isn’t sustainable now for many families. Also Bridget Jones and SITC are culturally popular for a reason.
Europe is actually using its welfare state to support women at work and in family life and encourage both.
Id fight tooth and nail to hold on to those quirky cultural icons you mention but globalisation is having an effect. Hell the industrial revolution had an effect.
If ENGLAND had some recognition at long damn last that would help!There is a question being asked about our cultural heritage now at least.
p.s Ill NEVER give up drinking tea. You can rely on that.
The fact is we Westerners need to have way more babies. Although the left is averse to babies because it feels they impede a woman's potential, I say babies are good for the future, emotionally fulfilling, and lots of fun to make.
Do any fine-looking, disease free European girls want to help me save Western Cristendom? I'm willing to hear out any offer.
I dunno L.A those Mexican chicks on telemundo are pretty damn hot I figure the more of them that enter the country the better. And Alison "reconquista" is just a buzz word used by the various political hacks to scare people. My neighborhood has been experiencing a housing boom lately so the Mexican population during the day is very high, I doubt any of them see "reconquista" as a real possibility or else they wouldn't be breaking their backs for less than minimum wage. Also
I remeber in the eighties when nut right wingers predicted that the black population in America would explode and marginalize us poor whitey's didn't happen.
Nice to see such a healthy debate going on! I think maybe I was a little too heavy on the schadenfreude but the post was also an excuse to rant about conservative America's (IMHO) wilful blindness as to the true nature of our resident little socialist dictator...
OUR resident little dictator...
George W. Bush?
I'll agree to conservative America's wilful blindness on that issue!
Rastaman,
All that talk about Earth being overpopulated is a myth. Scientists and other brilliant people have been predicting a world disaster from exponential population growth for the last 40 years but it will never happen.
In fact, world fertitlity rates have fallen since the 1960s. In fact, by current math we are more likely to go extinct than overpopulate. All that crap about earth being overpopulated is a scare tactic forwarded by environmental extremists who despise humanity and wish the Tufted Titmouse to have its own private forest.
Overpopulation is rubbish. Westerners need to have all the babies they can. The big problem with Westerners having no babies is that Westerners (especially continental Europeans) love cradle to the grave welfare and social services. Unfortunately, these programs depend on large numbers of young workers being around to support the system.
If we don't start having babies, we will have to import workers to support the system. These workers will destroy or drastically alter the predominant culture.....
Thus, low birth rate + a sense of entitlement = cultural alteration and/or destruction. This is especially bad for Europe, becuase I would argue that Europe's greatest asset/world contribution is its many cultures.
And if anyone thinks that importing workers of a different culture wont change things for the worse, I challenge them to find a stituation in any of world history to find a situation where it produced a good result. If the Romans couldn't deal with it, what makes anyone think we can?
OK but on the flip side to that whats to say the predictions on population decline arent also a bit suspect or that it wont all change. SOME of that european welfare is used to support women in work who both need to work and want a family which globalised economies FORCE families to do. In Italy they are paying women to have kids.
Some good healthy debate going on here today and very good points by all.
I'd just like to add my little thoughts for a moment.
1) Global overpopulation is a serious problem and its killing the planet. As you all know birth-rates in indigenous Europe and Anglo-Americans are going down but in third-world nations they are sharply increasing. As China and India are now developing rapidly, consuming more resources, the planet is in big trouble.
2) My wife is Spanish and believe me she is white and definitely European. I think Mexican immigrants to the US will assimilate but they need some time and to be treated a bit better to do so (treating them with contempt will isolate them). On my last visit to the US I nearly started the odd fist-fight over the way some folks treated my wife. Though I'll add most were very nice to us.
3) Burgeoning immigration on both sides of the Atlantic is being driven by corporate greed and Globalisation, these people are fleeing from oppressive client [of America] regimes and grinding poverty which is exacerbated by environmental damage. Its a complex subject that I won't go into now but I'll add that I'm a major pro-Capitalist but capitalism has been distorted into craven greedy monster that is sucking the world dry. We need to end this corruption if we are to effectively curb immigration.
I agree with the list administrator we (the West) need babies! Make Love, and War!
There IS however a worldwide population problem, the developing countries are growing massively, I heard an estimate that by 2050, Yemen's population will have tripled, and Russia's will have halved. The Western nations are in decline population wise, with the exception of France & America, though this is largely due to immigrant communities.
The ratio of Muslims to the total population of the EU countries ranges between 3.5 and 5.5%. However, the ratio of Muslim youth (between 45 and 50% of the Muslims) to EU youth is between 16 and 20%. In other words, in a few years Muslims will constitute 16 to 20% of the European workforce, and could therefore influence policies and decision-making. From here
Scott from the Ablution has a prediction that by 2060, the Muslim population in this country will rise to 20%! What worries me is the inherent rise in Infidelophobia with increasing Muslim populations.
To Allie:
I am aware they are paying women to have kids in Italy, but the last I heard it has had no impact.
Last time I checked Italy's birthrate was among the lowest in recorded history (which us utterly mad because when my grandparents immigrated from Italy to the USA, people was Italy's largest export!).
Italian women do not want to be bothered with raising kids these days- they'd rather have the thinest cell phone on thier block. I hate to generalize, but from my perspective Italian society has grown utterly superficial and materialistic.
And as for overpopulation and globalism being problems:
1) China has now has a negative growth rate due to its 2 child per couple laws
2) Wouldn't globalization- followed by India's rapid emmergance as a 1st world nation- lead to a decline in its growth rate?
The way I see it, if future countries follow the capitalist pattern of the West, growth rates will decline worldwide.
Not that I believe that overpopulation is actually a problem to begin with...
:)
Just to add my tuppenceworth in (what an out-of-date phrase that is becoming now! But I'm old fashioned like that): Take a train from the Midlands to London and look out the window the whole time. What do I see? 95% fields, sheep, crops, wasteland. 5% built-up areas. Where is this overpopulation? I don't see it. Similarly, I took a train from Dublin to Galway not too long ago: same story.
It's very easy to talk about overpopulation when you come out of Covent Garden station (blooming hell, I like crowds to an extent, but that was way too claustrophobic for my tastes), but if you live in a rural town surrounded by countryside, like I do, it gives you a different perspective.
The UK could support twice, three times its current population, no problem. Australia, for example, is 99.9% unpopulated in terms of actual square miles of land space. There is simply heaps and heaps of room for more people on the planet. That's my opinion, anyway.
The best thing about your comment is that Engalnd has some of the highest population density in the world!
Ive traveled England and Ireland by rail and I can substantiate that once you get out of the urban centers, there's lots and lots of cows, sheep, and empty space.
The United States, on the other hand, has a MUCH lower population density than England. The entire continent is mostly empty space.
Does this mean I want to see every inch of it developed? Of course not.
To address Rastaman, You're welcome to your opinion but I must add that your comments are totally and utterly subjective.
You are, however, correct- I was not around during the 60s or most of the 70s, but don't go telling me that those decades were a magical depopulated fairlyland with tangerine trees and maramlade skies.
Don't take this as an insult, but it seems to me that you accept left wing environmental orthodoxy with little critical or skeptical thought.
We shouldn't necessarily discount the the things told to us by MSM and pop culture out of hand, but when it comes to politically charged issues such as the environment, the Iraq War, or global warming, you'd have a better chance of getting the real truth from a ouija board.
Yeah theres lot of space but in areas where only very rich people get to live. There are no jobs in those areas. The south is way too full b/c thats where all the jobs are. people deserve a quality of life here in the city that this government seems intent on NOT giving them. London is a fantastic place to live and has improved no end since the Germans tried to flatten it! But we cant take on more and more people and not see an effect on mentality, lifestyles..
LA to address your point about Italian women or rather western women as it applies across europe and the US possibly. Hasnt everyone become superficial and materialistic? Not just the birds. Men seem way less concerned with getting married and having families. there seems to be a bit of a power struggle going on on that front. And where people do want to have families it has to be balanced against what they can afford. Which brings us back up against globalisation and effects.
Allie,
In general I agree with you. Materialism and shallowness is a woldwide problem, however my opinion (admittedly general and totally subjective) is that Italian women take materialism much more to heart than American women do. I think this might help explain the cold hard fact that Italy has the lowest birth rate of any Western nation.
And while "globalization" is an easy and ambiguous target and an easy explaination for this move towards shallowness and superficiality, I think there are much more important contributors-
1) The Christian Religion has been marginalized by pop culture and the West's overall prosperity. Without Christianity, the West has lost its moorings in morality and perspective...hence a large, loving family has ceased to become the primary goal of the individual.
2) The power of the media/pop culture. Lets face it- this is the dominant force in our society and culture. Moreover, it is a strange (and one would think oxymoronic) brew of leftist ideals and crass consumerism and one-upsmanship.
A fine example is Gangsta Rap, though you can see it in movies and on TV as well. This music constantly parrots the old leftist blather of the burdens of the colored folk (brought upon them by whitey, of course) while extolling the "virtues" of designer clothes, fast cars, and expensive liquor.
This appeals to Western youth cause its the only thing really exposed to them. The media says whats "cool" and what isn't, and thats a hard thing to get over-even for adults. After all, who aspires to be a "normal" housewife when they can aspire to be Paris Hilton or a cheap knock-off thereof?
3) Finally, as you touched on above, it is very expensive to have a large family. My question is this: is it expensive because of out of control capitalism or because even here in America we have huge, bloated social programs that take 1/4 to 1/2 of my weekly paycheck?
Here in the USA (and depending what state you live in- New York might be the most expensive), the average worker works until April just to pay off taxes. As I said, if you are single and live in New York, you probabaly work until May or even June to pay off taxes.
In Sweden, I heard they work until the fall to pay off taxes to fund their welfare state.
Maybe if there were'nt all these opressive taxes, people would have more money for children.
Now Im no advocate of laissez faire Capitalism, but I feel that any more government than is absolutely necessary saps a nation's strength and vitality. One can agrue what is "absolutely necessary", but I know that we pay a higher proportion of taxes now than we did during World War II fighting a major, two front war. Something's very wrong with that.
-TLA
Umm, shall we break for tea?
Now you literally can't find a chip of [agate] anywhere and we're talking millions of acres. "
So? What relevance does this have to overpopulation?
"I used to fish along the So. Calif. coast where you could see bottom 20 feet down. Now the water is orange and you actually cannot see into it so much as an inch. There were lots of fish and all were good to eat. Now there are warning signs: "Danger, Pollution. DO NOT EAT THE FISH."'
Again, you point out an instance of what you take to be pollution. What does this have to do with overpopulation?
Pollution and overpopulation are not necessarily related. Nations with low or declining populations- like Ukraine or Romania- are often more polluted than more populous nations.
Moreover, since the 1970s evidence indicates that even though the US Population has swelled to 300 million, its gotten cleaner due to environmental laws.
For an illustration, google the amount of smog warning days Los Angeles had in 1977 and look how many less it had in 2005.
You can't make assumptions. What you are doing is equivalent to walking outside to see wetness on your sidewalk and cursing the bad weather when that water could have come from your leaky garden hose, a toddler's spilt cup, or the town drunk taking a piss on your lawn during his way home from the pub last night.
Plus, you are needlessly angry and nasty.
And no, I have no negro best friends and I generally dislke Pakis.
Have a nice day.
L.A
Sorry to get back to you late on this but last nights news here was interesting viewing!
1) Yes the West has replaced christian values... with even more rules.
2) I agree with you about the media and pop culture and the power they exert. Nothing wrong with culture, of course as long as they arent manipulated. The media has been doing this for a while and really drives this. The MSM have a lot to answer for.
3) I object to paying for a fat lying bastard of an an MP who does nothing but play class wars and the 'rest' with his employees (John Prescott)
Taxes are at the highest they have ever been here so yes i believe in limited government too, i hope thats what the Tories still stand for. I believe in healthcare and SOME support but not in cradle to grave type support which the left have engineered.
Really, Rastaman, good job refuting my arguments.
Not only did you fail to tell us why pollution is always and necessarily linked to population growth (because its clearly not!), but you also exposed yourself as a nutbag with your statements like: "human babies aren't sacred".
Your remind me of Eric Pianka. Go figure.
Here's a thought- If human population growth disgusts you so much, start by sterilizing your children (if you even have any), and then kill yourself. By your own logic, niether you nor your family has a "right to life", so practice what you preach.
As for me, Ill just be content with my smog infested overpopulated hell-hole where all the water is yellow, there are no tangerine trees, and 'agate' is just a fond memory of a few whacked-out old baby boomers.....
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