"More than 900 Lebanese, most of them civilians, have been killed in the conflict, the Lebanese government says. More than 90 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also been killed" the BBC
So...according to the BBC and the Lebanese government no Hitzballah soldiers have been killed? Israel have missed every single Hitz guerilla out there but Hitzballah have been reasonably successful??
Perhaps more accurately:
"Israel's attacks on Lebanon have killed at least 617 people, including 524 civilians, 29 Lebanese soldiers and at least 53 Hezbollah guerrillas" the Washington Times
And thats still probably very conservative since we already know that Hiztballah blend into the background and don't wear uniforms:-.
source ~ photos that damn Hitzbollah
We know they have uniforms though. When they parade around like Nazis and the world gazes on absent mindedly. The BBC and msm in presenting these figures give a terror organisation that openly calls for Israels destruction the moral high ground. The figures are presented to skew the bias and present Hitzbollah as a morally superior organisation.
Israel should work harder to present the facts. It is losing the propaganda war. The same absent minded populations with nothing to say on Holocaust denial - reach out for their papers and buy into all the fiction.
Israel needs our support.
Sky have a decent pictorial mini history of Hitzballah to remind us (if required) that Israels previous attempts at capitulating to Hitzballah have only led us to the present day conflict. They are now justifiably fully engaging these terrorists who have been cossetted by the Lebanese government.
"In 2005, Lebanon's prime minister-designate Najib Miqati rejected international demands for the disarming of the Hizbollah militia.The group remains the most powerful military force in the country"
posted by Alison @ 11:21 pm
32 Comments:
Notice how the BBC quote makes the moral comparison between Israel killing Lebanese civilians and downplays the Israeli civilian deaths?
We're supposed to forget that the Hezboos would kill every single Jew in Israel if given the chance (and yes, they DO mean it) and that they deliberately target civilians.
Yes totally agree Mike, have listened to all reports. Biased isn't in it!
Now here's a thing...the Lebanese government now wants, as part of the UN deal, all Isreali soldiers to pull out of Southern Lebanon (all the areas they have made somewhat safer) and put in 15,000 Lebanese soldiers to police the area! Duh Well of course the Isrealis should agree to this, as the Lebanese track record is so good.
Sorry to keep banging on about Anna Botting, but I would like a Kartusha rocket to fall right next to her...I will then fly out to say oh dear sorry Anna they missed. I will never forget that stupid woman talking to a soldier who could be dead within a few hours of leaving her interview.
Maggie - what did she say to the soldier i missed that?
Absolutely Mike. A whole section of my post appears to be missing - thanks blogger! But yes that was generally my point. Alongside the fact that Hiztbollah have very nice nazi uniforms which if they werent playing such a clever tactical and propaganda war would make it easier for journos to work out whose getting killed out there.
Ill stick that bit back in shortly if blogger works!
Mind you, and I'm just musing in a devil's advocate sort of way now, could things have been different if other strategies had been employed.
Israel has been at war with Egypt in the past and peace was bought by returning all prisoners and returning all captured territory. Egypt is no "democracy" and is well armed but this strategy bought peace.
In dealing with the IRA the Irish government handed over some political power to Sinn Fein and the British government released all prisoners. The IRA has still not completely disarmed but it has bought peace.
I think you can see where I'm going with this reasoning.
I don't like appeasement either but when faced with a never-ending cycle of hatred it sometimes seems prudent to try another strategy. Israel used force before in Lebanon and it didn't achieve anything then and I suspect just doing it all again (just harder) isn't now.
Jo,
When a country (and Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government)launches rocket atacks into civilian areas of their neighbours, that neighbour is entitled to defend itself. Period. This isnt some kind of 'one for one' game whereby its OK to target civilians as long as you dont kill any more of theirs than they kill of yours.
The thing is, the Shiite Muslims of Lebanon would like every Jew in Israel to be exterminated. What's a 'proportionate' response to the knowledge that your neighbours want every single one of your people dead?
You're right about one thing though. Olmert's decision to respond to Hezbollah with air power rather than ground attack was beyond stupid. The only way for Israel to remove the threat to their people is to clear Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon and reoccupy it as they did before.
Whic brings us to Wolfie. Mate, read your history about Israel and Lebanon. When Israel occupied southern Lebanon, Israel's civilians were safe from any attack from there. Israel left lebanon - and the attacks started again, Hezbollah had time and leisure to establish ammo dumps, weapons caches and launching platforms there and now we see the end result. You can't 'appease' the likes of Hezbollah like Britain did the IRA. The correct analogy isnt the 1990's, its 1938.
Jo
Iran is endlessly supplying them with the katushas Jo. Hitzbollah even before the war, had a large large nos of civi supporters able to use them. Hitzbo flags flew from lampposts in the civilian areas currently being bombed. HItzbollah stashed their weaponary up in these areas in clear violation of all international laws, fully supported by the majority population and more importantly the Lebanese government - whilst they bombarded Israeli civilians in northern Israel for years. Where was the moral indignation at the failures here?
Hitzbollah have declared from day one that they wish to see Israels complete destruction. Is that what Stoppers mean by negotiating/appeasing? Israel negotiated with Hitzbollah previously - it released prisoners
in an exchange which benefited Hitzbo, they withdrew from south
Lebanon - in appeasing Hitzbollah they made them stronger. The payback was with random katushas. Hitzbo 'negotiations' involve firing katushas to secure 28km of farmlands? Or rather to prolong the Israel hate.
The Lebanese government endorsed Hitzbollah as recently as last year and totally renaged on its own duties within the UN resolutions to subdue them. Lebanon has a duty of care and is responsible for its own
people and in not undertaking any moves towards undoing this organization or subduing it is *responsible*.
The reason Israel are attacking now is because *Lebanon* didnt subdue them by negotiation and Israel no longer wish to appease and see an emboldened Hitzbollah bent on Israels destruction acting at the hands of Iran and receiving more funding. Whilst Iran goes nuclear.
Israel have succeeded in exposing Hitzbo and Iran as the real culprits to all but the blind - the whole international community should swing behind them.
Whats disproportionate about attempting to win a war btw? And incidentally who rejected the initial peace proposals yesterday? Clearly they are they SO concerned about civilian deaths they would rush to support a process. But not if it appeases Hitzbollah? Funny that. As long as Israel loses face – as in all times previous to this when appeasement has been the order of the day.
Basically if Israel appeases its strengthens Hitzbollah and if Israel attempts to crush them it strengthens them.
Go for the latter - wipe them out.
The world should be disgusted that the Lebanese government has cosseted Hitzbollah. The puppet of Iran who deny the Holocaust and Israels right to even exist. The world should be disgusted at that.
It is the Lebanon that has not acted in it own best interests. The Arab world you refer to does not include a vast majority of sunnis who recoil in horror at the increased power of fundamentalists in the region and who are hoping Israel is successful. It is the msm, Stopper Lefties and ROPers that shamefully unite and strengthen the opposition to Israel and engender anti semitism. That disgusts me quite frankly.
No appeasing terror. That route has *only* strengthened it.
All arabs want to see the removal of Israel, now. Does that mean that you should go ahead and exterminate all Arabs.(sounds NAZI)
Egyptians are not a democracy but if you go there I am sure you will nothing but a population that wants Israel dead as well. Does that mean you should exterminate them?
Point being that: Exterminating your enemy is sick of that means exterminating a peoples.
Exterminating your enemy was the thought of Hitler and his likes. Stalin wanted to exterminate his enemies too. Israel does not learn from History at all does it. It left Lebanon in 2000 because it could not stop Hizbullah in all those years of fighting. That is because it is NOT AN ARMY, but a thing FROM THE PEOPLE.
Like I said, Israel doesn't learn, and so it will continue to try to destroy Hamas and Hezbollah and in the end it will accomplish nothing. Only have wasted soo much and grown hate for itself worldwide.
Israel is nothing but a relic from colonialism and will go from the region one day. Who the hell in their right mind would put a people in the midst of another group of people that hates them and form a state there. Only 20% of israelis are actually born there, I think the 80% that were not should up and leave to the US and brittain because they have good friends and can find high positions there.
It wasnt solved by talking Jo. At all. All the international laws, UN resolutions, brokered peace deals, diplomacy, appeasement and concessions have EMBOLDENED the terrorists. Its not a question of wrong its a question of defence. The civilians arent under attack Jo, Hitzbollah are. And it isnt about voters it is about full and outright support. Im not sure ive ever heard of any war where there wasnt destruction. But then again im not sure ive ever heard of a peacedeal which involved random bombing of civilians in northern Israel.
Anonymous - please take your anti semitic shite and post it elsewhere. Suggesting a nation and its people almost wiped out by nazism hasnt 'learned from its mistakes' is beyond sinister.
DSD,
"When Israel occupied southern Lebanon, Israel's civilians were safe from any attack from there."
But were the Lebanese safe from attack? Did the IDF really cease and desist?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1839280,00.html
"Hezbollah had time and leisure to establish ammo dumps, weapons caches and launching platforms there and now we see the end result."
Same could be said of Israel which has built up its military in the interim.
"The correct analogy isn't the 1990's, its 1938."
Oh pleeease! Not another tired old Nazi analogy in replacement for intelligent argument.
Alison,
"No appeasing terror. That route has *only* strengthened it."
Seems to be quite the contrary right now as Hezbollah is quickly becoming the "poster-boy" for radicalism and its making all the moderate regimes quake in their boots. Only a matter of time before every "jihadist" in the region is fly-papered into the region to have-a-go. This is a test-case for 4GW "non-state-actor" conflict and thanks to Israeli bone-headedness the bad-guys are winning; its no-good blaming the media - the snouts are in the trough from both sides of the fence.
The wholesale destruction of the infrstructure of another country...
This is just a gross exaggeration, an unfortuante byproduct of relying on Hizballah progandists and the MSM.
If only there was the same preparedness to talk as there is to press buttons...
You have grossly misunderstood the nature of Hizballah. How do you "talk" to group who's leader says If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide. (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)
My script reads, the Hizbollah attacked and killed Israeli soldiers in Israel and took one into captivity. This all led blah blah blah to what we are experiencing now. Talking you say will achieve peace, they have been talking for years and the only thing the Arabs want is the extermination of Israel. Yes it is onesided the Israelis have the better fire power - killing innocent civilians..but that's where the Hizbollah are. If the Lebanese didn't want them there they should have vehemently denied them the right to exist in the 'civilian' communities. I do believe that leaflets were dropped warning these people they were in danger. The Hizbollah know and rejoice in a situation where the Lebanese are being killed in large numbers. Why else would they fire their rockets from these areas. The most frightening aspect of all this is that Iran is arming the Hizbollah and they want to achieve nuclear viability. Do you seriously think if they get it they won't hesitate to use it. Meanwhile that crap organisation called UN will continue to shout to them, in a whisper, if you continue in your quest we will smack your wrists! Wise up everyone this is a war, and a war, not only the Israelis have to win but the whole of the civilised world.
From Jo's site
Let's say Iran (or another neighbour) has developed WMD. The leader of that state should issue an immediate ultimatum to the Israeli population to leave the territory immediately, or face the consequences. In other words, let's apply the "logic" of the position that the Israelis have placed the population of south Lebanon (while at the same time bombing east and northern Lebanon, including Beirut.
Umm since when did Jews/Israelis call for all Muslims to be called and start launching missiles at civilian targets in Iran? Are you fucking nuts?!
Insane? Possibly? Anti-Semetic? Possibly. But it's an exact analaogy to the position that Israel has put the population of Lebanon. Let's be consistent. If they don't want to be bombed off the face of the earth, they should leave the Middle East and resolve the problem there once and for all.
I'm sorry but your 'logic' is intellectually bankrupt, Jo. Again when have Israeli's threatened civilians in Lebanon/Iran/Syria just for the sake of being Muslim???
Jo (hello btw) - it isnt any reassurance to Israelis when you suggest yet more useless talk talk as a viable defence against those that would see another Holocaust perpetrated either and certainly Israel has made the concessions these past years...to what end?
They already WERE poster boys and girls before the war (check the images above please!) so tell me people please what good appeasement has actually brought about in real terms. Other than to embolden terrorists and make terrorism a legitimate means to an end.
Of course the MSM are culpable if they fail to see the issues here or present such a one sided picture as to propagate myths and half truths that endorse Hitzbollah. Stoppers love the perceived "underdog".
Im not sure i get the bit you posted chez JoBlog either in truth. Thanks JOnz for the other link on infrastructure - was looking for that one...
Maggie - my sentiments exactly. This IS the 30s. Wise up everyone!
Jonz...do not understand the logic of your arguments. Do not understand your arguments at all. Read your comment does it actually make sense to you. If it does ...sad
JOnz is quoting from Jo's blog Maggie - thats not his line of thinking..so the logic is Jo's not J0nz's...least were agreed it doesnt make sense to any of us!!
Wolfie!?! "Not another tired old Nazi analogy in replacement for intelligent argument"
Holocaust denial, nazi salutes...annhiliation of the Jews, Nasrallah's sentiments 2002, Irans sentiments 2006..whats 'tired' about it? Its alive and kicking.
Yes sorry Jonz it was directed at Jo (not you) who was not, and continues not, to make any sense at all. I am tempted to say what planet is she living on...
Its a war Jo. Think about this - you stoppers had 6 years to prevent this. You didnt. What was 'morally acceptable' to you then? An utter disregard for the peace processes and resolutions you all clamoured for and then turned around and ignored?
Whats not morally acceptable to me is the open call for a holocaust. The blurring of facts to skew the propaganda. And the 'shoulder shrugging tactics' of Hitzbollah and Lebanon ALL ALONG that led to this. And who now fight the war they started from behind civilians...
OK Alison, my Father was a WW2 veteran from India to Iraq so I'm pretty up to speed on what the Nazis were and were not right from the cradle.
First of all you can find a lot of similarity with Nationalistic causes throughout the ages, ultimately they all copy the Romans. You see many similarities with America but I'm not making the fatuous comparison today. I'm a bit confused with who you are accusing exactly because you have spread about a bit wildly.
Holocaust denial : The correct Persian translation is "myth", a myth is a story which may or may not be true which you use to justify your existence. Argument : http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2006/07/everything_you_.html
Nazi salute : Actually its the Roman salute, I think the Assyrians used it first. So the Nazis nicked it off the Arabs in the first place.
Annihilation of Jews : With their nuclear arsenal any Arab leader actually attempting it would be off his trolley and would be ash within 4 mins; Israel is stronger than ever. Its hollow bluster and I think every Kasbah loafer knows it.
The Nazis were highly organised, highly armed meticulous planners with incredible discipline and determination. The Arab states you are referring to are a shambles with utterly feeble weapons in comparison to Israel, no discipline and fighting each other mostly. Can't even wipe their own arse let alone Israel's.
You are insulting Nazis.
The Nazis were highly organised, highly armed meticulous planners with incredible discipline and determination. The Arab states you are referring to are a shambles with utterly feeble weapons in comparison to Israel, no discipline and fighting each other mostly. Can't even wipe their own arse let alone Israel's.
Correction; the Nazis - at the height of their power - were highly organised, highly armed meticulous planners with incredible discipline and determination.
"a shambles with utterly feeble weapons.... no discipline and fighting each other mostly"
This correctly describes the German National Socialist Workers party in the early 1920's.
j0nz
OK Wolfie, quickly as ive got to do some actual work here today -
Hitzbollah & Hamas arent emulating the Romans. Where it originates is academic in this set of circumstances...
Also the Nazis werent always the highly organised planners - they started off with a lot of bluff bluster and perceived organisation to rally the masses. Very successfully.
Ill need more time to read your link on the holocaust.
Pls see JOnz links above about the aggressive statements made.
The statements perpetuate irrational Jew hatred and doesnt fill me with confidence when considering Iran is up for nuclear weapons or that Israel is surrounded by hostile states.
Im quite happy to be insulting Nazis.
The Lebanese government have had plenty of time to get their house in order. If they insist on harbouring terrorists and letting them build up an arsenal (supplied by Iran) and hide amongst the civilian population, then it is they who should answer to the population for their destruction.
No-one is laughing except when you make simplistic statements like...dropping leaflets before a wmd is fired...that equates etc.etc. yeah right. Going out now so you can have the last word.
Unlikely Jo wars have been fought since time began. Its all very well trying to take a prinicpled stand but noone did before this war broke out and therein lies part of the problem. Lecturing about the rights and the wrongs of the war after it has broken out is all a bit academic and somewhat questionable (see earlier comments). Especially when you are defending those whose inclination is was to start this one.
Jo,
So let's be clear on this: you support a ground invasion of Southern Lebanon to root out Hezbollah as long as the airstrikes stop?
The Lebanese army won't disarm Hezbollah. Hitzbo could run ransack over the entire country if they wanted to or if they were threatened internationally at this point in time. The army would likely disintegrate.
At best disarming Hezbollah by force internally would lead to a civil war with Iran ready to pounce. And just as many innocent casualties.
The Lebanese army has no power. The government has little or no power to push the army. All been left too late. It barely polices Lebanons streets and is no match for Hitzballah who effectively control Lebanon.
I feel that threats of outside airstrikes against Hitzbo is equivalent to the US threatening Iran at this point.
Israel seek to disarm the Party of God and protect their citizens as per the original conditions of the UN resolution. I fail to see why the international community should really have an issue with that aspect or pick the wrong side. There should be no yelping on this point.
I know you strongly favour jaw jaw but it seems me that all the jaw jaw in the world has led us to this crisis point with war then initiated by Hitzbo.
Had the IRA been chucking missiles into the British mainland for a nos of years I would fully expect the British government to do something about it. I dont see that as madness - I see it as self defence.
Oh right. Aimed squarely at civilians? What was Omagh then. a glitch? As far as i can tell the IRAs handy work has spread far and wide with appeasement and influenced many. And im also sure without 9/11 it would have continued. Unabaited by appeasement.
OK before we go off on the IRA (and i would think you have the historical detail edge there!)..what about DSDs question - assuming you'd go along with the fact that your position might end in civil war...
NAZI NAZI NAZI
thats all jewish people ever seem to call anyone that doesn't like them.
You are quickly becoming as powerfull and organized and angry as Hitler. Soon you will be the ones that want to exterminate everyone in Gaza and the Westbank and will make Hitler look like a nice guy.
No, I am not an anti-semite, I am just telling it like it is. You can be as jewish as ever and I respect you, but Israel is the most retarded state formed during colonialism.
"Israel is the most *retarded* state formed during colonialism"
Retarded...yep...off the back of the Holocaust - but you're no anti-semite.
LOL. Anyway - hope you feel better for getting that off your chest.
no
don't feel better!
Am just telling it like it is. It will be gone one day and then the entire world can feel better. Jewish people will be happy elsewhere too. In Europe or in the states I mean.
Jo,
The fact that you seriously and sincerely 'think the IRA have stopped but Loyalists continue' shows your Republican bias is as clear as ever. Laughable.
'Jewish people will be happy elsewhere'
And i dont feel better for you saying this. You're an idiot.
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