Clowns & Jokers

Stuck in the middle.... Left, right, centre. It's a mess out there.

Friday, February 02, 2007

"The Debate is Ghettoised"


I wanted to link to the article but can't. So if you want to you can click and try to read the jpg.
This is the first time ive read a male perspective like this. He makes some great points and it's pretty balanced. He doesn't excuse binge drinking but acknowledges the social implications on both sides.
One of the things you notice about blogging is that when issues such as rape come up and various discussions ensue there is an immediate decrying of the way women behave first, especially on the Right. I've been gobsmacked by the entrenched attitudes. On the level, over time this has made me feel like shedding few tears when laws are discussed that might mean some rutting stag gets banged up.
As it stands the law doesnt make it easy for women and so far the legal status quo doesn't seem to have worried men all that much.
The liars, the sensational football star allegations are awful but they are a tiny minority. They make great press too. Whenever rape and the issues are discussed and opinions are sought on-line (or in discussions with friends and colleagues) you invariably get women commenting about some hideous situations. Few of these make every day headlines.
The outdated militant feminist agenda is frustrating for all of us. But I find it depressing that quite a few men are dismissive of issues because of the latter. Yes women need to take care of themselves, of each other when they are drinking (or not), only a fool would think differently. But a change in attitude needs to take place on both sides.

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30 Comments:

At Saturday, 03 February, 2007, Blogger james higham said...

Alison, I've been following the comments on Ellee's blog and came over here to read your view more fully. I'm posting on this tomorrow morning late. I'm with you to a point because there really are rapes and the younger or weaker victim will not report it. But there has to be a line.

I made the mistake of going, in a car, with two other guys and two girls to a private bash. There was no doubt in that car what was on the agenda. I would think those girls would have a hell of a job proving rape.

Trouble is, we can't get a calm debate because there are two genders with their own experiences and viewpoints and we can't demand the other gender thinks like we do because they don't.

At any hour of the day I'm with 12 or 14 girls and so the issue is sometimes discussed but it's notoriously one-sided and I find myself pushed into the male position on it, when I want to be in the centre.

 
At Saturday, 03 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

"Trouble is, we can't get a calm debate because there are two genders with their own experiences and viewpoints and we can't demand the other gender thinks like we do because they don't... it's notoriously one-sided and I find myself pushed into the male position on it, when I want to be in the centre."

You have hit the nail on the head there, I agree 100%. I too unfortunately find my self in the male position when I want to be in the centre.

James I will be checking your blog. It would interesting to know how you respond on the subject when discussed with all those girls.

 
At Saturday, 03 February, 2007, Blogger associatecontributor1 said...

12 to 14 girls at any hour of the day, man now that's stamina.

 
At Sunday, 04 February, 2007, Blogger james higham said...

associatecontributor1 - just shooting the breeze, that's all. No claims to heroics. Girls are my work.

jonz and alison - first one posted. The other six will follow immediately.

Good points made both in the post and in your comments.

 
At Sunday, 04 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

James where are you posting, clicking on your naem brings up an empty blog called Mr Badger

 
At Sunday, 04 February, 2007, Blogger james higham said...

http://nourishingobscurity.blogspot.com/

Just been re-reading some of Alison's posts. Cool lady.

 
At Sunday, 04 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

She is a very cool lady. Not enough chicks (sorry Alison!) on the blogosphere I'm afraid.

 
At Sunday, 04 February, 2007, Anonymous alison said...

hi - i'll catch up on the posts and think about your answers here a bit before replying. just to say im giving it some thought! and thanks for the comments

 
At Monday, 05 February, 2007, Anonymous M said...

In the earlier part of this century women acted in an entirely different manner, largely due to public opinion and the fear of getting pregant. Along came the pill and other methods of contraception. This enabled women to have much more freedom and so they changed their attitude to life.

The only trouble is men didn't
change theirs - and it is the same as in centuries past - go forth &
multiply.

OK I could go on and state that the majority of men are decent human beings and do not act in a despicable manner but we all
know that. There are, however, as we all know men with different
genes or whatever and rape happens, especially when women make themselves vulnerable. Changes in rape laws have to be made in order for women to continue a life with more freedom.

 
At Monday, 05 February, 2007, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alison

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13566717,00.html

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13566627,00.html

Two reports in one day. Yet the focus of the media and the nagging attitudes arent directed towards these men who appear 'normal' as they do here - its on the women who 'put themselves at risk' (eg make a mistake) or the few that lie.

Get your own 'house' in order first.

It is great to hear Will Self on this. Thank You for posting this. It does make a change. And yes it makes his more excellent ideas much easier to listen to because he at least has the courage to acknowledge something which has been going on long before binge drinking was an excuse to ignore it. Its all very well for 'Jonz' to come out and say he feels marginalised but is it any wonder women are reacting this way when fuck all reaction from the men out there is forthcoming? (unless of course it affects their wives sisters daughters..)

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

Well "anon", where the hell do i say I felt marginalised? I havent said that at all.

What a bizzare statement! I wanted to know how James point of view is seeing as it is with 14 girls everyday and not 14 blokes. Whats the problem? .. Christ. Talk about Gheottising the debate!

I read the article before Alison posted it... I agree with the article. Why would I be "marginalised", "anon"?!

Talk about projection...

What we see in in people are often mirrors of ourselves.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

Anon

I am a little confused as the two articles you link the focus is not "on the women who 'put themselves at risk"

1st one says

"Three men who used the internet to hatch a "harrowing" schoolgirl rape plot have been jailed for a total of 27 years."

2nd one says

"A violent sex attacker who brought a "reign of terror" to a city's student population has been jailed."

neither shift the blame to 1the women or focus on those women who have lied.

Although I certainly that is the case for most media reports, I can't help but feel they were completely wrong examples. The News of the World might be a better source for such things...

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

"Changes in rape laws have to be made in order for women to continue a life with more freedom."

Ok fair enough.. but I can't see a solution in regards to change of law?

Perhaps changing rape to hate crime would work.

But I think it's all about attitudes, these need to be taught from a young age, and education for the public who are quite ignorant about things like this.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Anonymous alison said...

Late in on this.

Pls give a name rather than 'anon'. Just make one up. You're welcome though. It was a pleasure to read it so i was keen to post it.

'I agree 100%. I too unfortunately find my self in the male position when I want to be in the centre'.

What's a 'male position' then in that situation Jonz? Id hope the 'standard' male position at all times is the way Will Self sees it. He manages to get some sound balanced povs in there but is very clear on a key issue first. It invites a better debate.

I think Anons reaction is the lack of clarity - a standard 'male position' has been shoulder shrugging to date. Or maybe James feels pushed into a corner as ive felt pushed into a corner by men on the issue when debating. We assume to know what the others opinions are - in a group of girls he would be on the 'shoulder shrugger' or the 'its you girls fault' side and for me its 'youre a frikkinn feminazi' if you have an opinion. So when you state male position it isnt clear.

Think thats what was meant.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Anonymous alison said...

Anon

Thanks for the links. The media does headline the few cases of women who lie when you are right there are a lot of cases of rape both reported as you show (and unreported) in the media that show a big problem - but the cases where women lie is honed in on and used to unbalance the debate. Women who lie are rightly condemned but the nos of cases is overhyped by some to dilute the debate. Im not sure of the current figs of 50 000 rapes a year is accurate but if so it is a bigger problem than the couple of cases of women who lie - and where the man invariably gets off. No he shouldnt be in that position. But then there are a greater nos of men who should be but arent!

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

Well I think we've all felt the negative effect of being blanket typecast as a group.

The male position would probably be a defensive one, as men seem to get blamed in general, especially by women who have suffered at the hands of men. Bit of a vicious circle indeed.

It's not a push for the imagination to understand a woman who has been serially abused by men, to hate all men in general.

Certainly there's an arrogance in men with regards to rape - as they don't see it as their problem as they aren't a rapist themselves, havent been raped and dont know anyone raped.

So saying i'm marginalised, which makes all sorts of assumptions is a bit like me referring to somebody as a feminazi, a knee jerk rejection.

I don't shrug my shoulders at rape. I don't know any men that do. Last night I overheard in the pub a couple of working class blokes, saying about the internet rape conspiracy.

The most vocal one was saying that "three men have been convicted for it, and rightly so. What on earth goes through their mind they want to rape a teenage girl? it would ruin her life. It's just sick.." he carried on.

I think the knee jerk reaction from blokes is not to shrug their collective shoulders, but to point out that men feel vulnerable to unfounded rape accusations. Even if is extremely unlikely. And an incredible disservice to all those unreported and unconvicted rape cases.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

Sorry anon I didn't mean to get worked up like that. It's a complex debate and we all have valid contributions to make. Hopefully you can see that I'm actually on your side

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

And to clarify when I say "men" or "male point of view", I exclude rapists from that definition altogether.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger Tu s. Tin said...

Rape used to be defined by society as an act of violence commited by a stranger.
I know there are differnt scenarios ... but how has it became a violation of trust?
To me there are several froms of rape, emotional included.
Boys and girls can be guilty of this I guess.
Though no force is involved it still affects people. Someone told me a joke once ..... whats a man doing while a woman is making love?

..... getting f#%&*d.

I didn't think it was funny.
I understand sex for some can be a mutual agreement without commitment, but when did girls become nothing but blow up doll's to use? I would not enjoy sex with someone at all!!! if my only reason was cause I "needed" it and they just happened to be a man? Think I would rather take care of myself (if ya get the picture)
Girls are just some object? with no personality, brain, feelings or human qualities that make them special?
Where did respect go? Both for others and self?
I don't blame men for everything. Believe it or not I never felt porn or stripping was demoralizing towards women, always thought it was more the men who were being objectified ... maybe in some way it is our fault men now are stupid animals.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger Alison said...

Hi Tu

I feel women to a degree lost out in the sexual revolution b/c of male pride. Instead of men accepting the liberty it brought women through the ability to decide when you want to have kids etc (all basically good stuff for both genders really)..it went on to allow men to triviliase womens sexuality a bit with the advent of some rough old porn. Im confused as to why and how that came about. Was it just a reaction to radical feminism? I feel like a prude suggesting that SOME porn, soft porn and some images and media portrayals of women are too much. But they seem to want to make us trivial and objectify us in a lot of it. Not all of it is demoralizing but sometimes it feels all a bit much. Some of it it looks soooo trivial, crass, and unbelievably graphic. Im not sure why men would want to think of women that way? Red blooded males GOOD - but where is the line drawn .and when you think a quarter of all internet use is for porn thats a lot of potential for some boys growing up to have a seriously warped weirdo view of women. Some of the stuff out there is trully truly GROSS. Must be the catholic in me.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

Some porn is sick though which i completely avoid. Some of it is degrading to women. Some of it is even degrading to men.

I wish porn was made to turn on both men AND women. As it's nearly always focused on what the man wants.

We need decent porn for women. I reckon that would balance things out, a bit.

Im not sure why men would want to think of women that way?

Alison I think by large sexuality is almost completely unconcious in it's desires. If a guy watches sick porn, it's probably because he's sick in the head...

Porn should be done tastefully. And in my mind, leaving things to the imagination can be a lot sexier.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

And empirical evidence suggest where porn is banned or is a major taboo that the demand is even higher.

In Google trends

For the search term "sex" we have the following results.

1. Pakistan

2. Egypt

3. India

4. Iran

5. Morocco

6. Turkey

7. Viet Nam

8. Saudi Arabia

9. Croatia

10. Indonesia

Notice 7 of those are 95% plus Muslim (where of course porn is major taboo and banned)

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger Alison said...

Oh i think the link between violence, men and testosterone levels is pretty self evident. I think you missed one key point. A lot of porn is pretty crass etc as i said and freely available. Not all of it is sick but bordeline. How do you teach boys about women and sex when thats all available? You said attitudes to women and rape come down to education. So how would you solve that?

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

How do you teach anything, when anything is available?

We teach our kids decency, even though films are on where they go round killing people.

It's really down to parental responibility. Most kids are well aware of right and wrong.

We teach our children not to kill, but the age of 10 they will have probably witnessed thousands of onscreen murders. As long as they know the differnce between right and wrong, fact and fiction then things will work out right.

Oh i think the link between violence, men and testosterone levels is pretty self evident.

Errm , they all involve men?! .. Did you mean to say that or something else?

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger jonz said...

You need to educate on the rape myths I think. But I do think parental responsibility, instilling the right values and principles in their children is very important.

 
At Tuesday, 06 February, 2007, Blogger Alison said...

No i meant to say that. The countries you point to arent exactly bastions of female equality jonz!

You said earlier you think attitudes boil down to education. Porn isnt just porn on the net. Its soft porn which is far tackier cheaper and trickier for parents to protect their kids from. You think parental values come into it when a group of boys can pick that up anywhere? It used to be top shelf. Not anymore. All those ladz magz play up to one ideal. And were a reaction to girls getting 'sassier'. Lads mags sought to regain the ground with de facto triviliasing.

I think better role models is one way. And i mean that for both girls and boys. Britney Knickerless Spears is hardly something for girls to aspire to but plays directly to this soft porn mentality bred and fed in the media and lads mags. women play up to that 'ideal'. But then we always were our own worse enemies. Nothing wrong with all of it - but some balance and some role models would help.

 
At Wednesday, 07 February, 2007, Blogger Tu s. Tin said...

I agree with what you are saying about the soft porn ... its everywhere and in everything. I don't think the naked body is "dirty" unless it is made to be. In art through out history male and female were seen as beautiful. Now they are made to be sexual.
There is a differnce that takes away from the human element. What this world needs is a rennisaunce. I hate when people keep saying we are animals (and that has nothing to do with any God) We are not animals and I whish we would start celebrating intellect over instinct. Parents do have the resposibility to teach both sons and daughters everything ... to bad I can not be convinced the general public are not idiots. Everyone knows how a perfect world should work ... too bad it's not perfect.
I do support free speech ... but I feel it has been taken advantage of. Media and pop culture target a young audience.
I'm not sure if this is a reaction to radical feminism?
Please explain in what way you would feel that?


I tried to give you the link to a blogger palo girl before when you asked for more female voices... she has a similar topic posted about guys and girls in arab culture.

O T.... have you by chance seen the davinci code?

 
At Wednesday, 07 February, 2007, Blogger MrSmith said...

Uhoh, The Da Vinci Code. This can't be good.

What's meant in this context by 'rape myth', please? I'm sure it'd be a misunderstanding on my part to interpret it as 'rape is a myth', so what's meant?

 
At Wednesday, 07 February, 2007, Blogger Tu s. Tin said...

relax mrsmith, it was an OT question.

 
At Wednesday, 07 February, 2007, Blogger MrSmith said...

Haha. Yes, I can see. Don't worry, Tu, I'm more likely to laugh at the DVC than worry about it.

 

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