Clowns & Jokers

Stuck in the middle.... Left, right, centre. It's a mess out there.

Wednesday, December 06, 2006

IRANIAN WOMENS WING OFTHE LIBERATION FRONT BY:MANI TURKZADEH

19 Comments:

At Wednesday, 06 December, 2006, Blogger jonz said...

I can't help but think the more brutally suppressed marches (which there are reported to have been many) will never get to see the light of day.

Power to the women (never thought I'd say that!)- of Iran!

 
At Wednesday, 06 December, 2006, Anonymous alison said...

yeah i know modern feminism sucks for the most part most especially because it is used as a stick to beat the victimhood drum unnecessarily but there are things it still needs to achieve - basic levels of equality in places like Iran and SUPPORT from women here. And dare i say it a change of attitude towards women here. Balance is what im looking for. Not some bra burning nutjobs who want positive discrimination. But a general respect for whats wrong: holding women responsible for rape for example.

Most women my age and my level career wise arent thinking about careers. Its only a tiny tiny % who are at a level where they can be relentlessly career driven forsaking family life.

 
At Wednesday, 06 December, 2006, Blogger jonz said...

Indeed. Of course traditionally feminists have been leftists. Can't help but feel like you'll have a hard old time trying to get more than handful of left wing feminists to actually make a stand against anything other than the Bush, Blair and Israel..

May be it's about time right-thinking women take the baton and sprint with it.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I might be sorry for commenting and I won't do so anon-ly, I do read you often and like your blog , but sometimes you don't make sense, maybe it's me.
I don't intend to insult with questions ... only to understand.
You say what "these" women need is support from "us" women?
And you both seem to be honestly concerned with womens rights- and freedom but I really don't see you supporting either? Yes you have made some posts like this, which is good, and I don't know what you do in life .... but in your links I don't see any, and in your comments I don't hear any - from men or women.
maybe jonz will remember not long ago a woman came to me - for help...just to know someone was there..
http://soulheartmindbody.blogspot.com/
and he told me not to talk to her?
How is that supportive?
check out blogs from Iran ....
http://blogsbyiranians.com/
I'm sure there are ones you will not all together agree with, but the majority do not match the image of the middle east portrayed by some of the links you do have. The only one who WANTS to live in an oppresed society is the oppressor. I guess my question is what exactly do you stand for? and I'm only asking for an answer not an argument. also, please do not call me "left" anything ... moonbat ... uneducated ... liberal or whatever other label is applied nowdays to people who question while trying to see all sides.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous alison said...

ill come back to your points on my take on womens 'issues' seperately - but im curious to know why did jonz tell you not to support the woman in your first link? she is based in saudi arabia i see, what happened? Have you read Saudi Princess or read up on betty mahmoudi? Im equally curious to know how all of us distinguish between propaganda, fact and what one person views as right and wrong regards both.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous alison said...

no she isnt shes from dubai oops!..or UAE. i have saudi on my mind but should have known that would be unlikely!

why would you be sorry for commenting. bloody hell i hope im not scary. you arent insulting either so dont worry about that. ive had much much worse. so - why did he tell you not to comment there? and as for your question i shall post about it.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

you would have to ask him why? my guess would be failure to see individuals, but that is something we are all guilty of at times. We had asked her some questions about sharia law and she directed us to an Islamic fourm for the answers ... not really the ones we had hoped for either. They (the fourm) had told her after not to talk to us.
She didn't listen and neither did I, I'm glad cause we have learned alot from each other. I am curious about proaganda too.
You arent scary, I feel like I'm butting in, look forward to your post.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous alison said...

actually i quickly checked your blog and saw the comments this relates to. maybe he meant to be careful then, some of those forums are dodgy and im not sure i know what to make of her comments but she doesnt seem too bothered by the idea of strict shari'a. is that the same person? jonz?

im at work at the mo so ill try do this post. I had a run in with someone on a blog recently who politically im on the same side on but who was extremely angry with me about my 'feminist' viewpoint so maybe my own thoughts about 'feminism' for want of a better word etc would be best rationalised in a post of some kind.

blogging has been a learning experience for me and ive formed opinions along the way id say. i have always been very much pro womens rights tho' and debated argued petitioned for them (including mid east) since i was a teen. Never really was into the whole concept of feminism as it is (mis?)defined now.

I saw yr point on 'drinking from home' about hezbollah. Yes they are the new Nazi party. i feel the same way about challenging idiots who stand up with 'We are All Hitzbollah' now banners as I do about this issue - womens basic rights. they are the same idiots supporting one misguided cause and abandoning the other.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous alison said...

I forgot to add in this link - i wanted to follow up on this essentially:

http://makingheadlines21c.blogspot.com/2006/03/silence-of-feminists.html

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

sara and I have continued communication outside of blogging, and at the time I think she was at an extreme place of frustration, the answers from the forum where not quite what she wanted herself.
She does not want strict sharia law, she wants a true Isalmic state. Which in her opinion is one in need of calls for continued reform, and one where the government actually cares for its citizens in the way god intened,
not through opperesion, punishment or "laws" but with love, equality and mercy. There is not an ounce of hate in her Islam, and never once has she tried to convert me. Enough about her though.. Hezbollah, yes big big problem! getting bigger!
I have spent some time searching various Islamic forums... not all are "bad", but some are very disturbing to say the least, I am trying to gain enough knowledge of Islam to counter comment some of the things that are said on them. Maybe thats part of some answer, to stop re-enforcing all the negitives without ignoring they exist.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous Maggie said...

I have been a 'women's rights' supporter all my adult life (I am a lot older than the average blogger). All I have ever asked is treat women as if they are men without balls. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't watch Channel4 keep the off button firmly on. Let's not give these women anymore publicity. Maybe Channel 4 would like to publish a programme featuring women being stoned to death. Maybe we could all donate and send the women so keen on wearing the traditional dress to live in Saudi Arabia for a while to learn a lesson about 'freedom'.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Blogger jonz said...

She does not want strict sharia law, she wants a true Isalmic state. Which in her opinion is one in need of calls for continued reform, and one where the government actually cares for its citizens in the way god intened,
not through opperesion, punishment or "laws" but with love, equality and mercy. There is not an ounce of hate in her Islam, and never once has she tried to convert me


Well I think in many ways the Quran can be like a mirror. An angry Muslim can find things to justify hate and violence. A peaceful Muslim can find many things that back up his or her peaceful world view.

I don't doubt in her version of Islam that it's about peace and justice. And if rememeber rightly, she seemed a little shocked at the response to my questions from her fellow Muslims.

I asked about apostasy and several came out in favour of death. Not unreasonably so in terms of being a Muslim. Mohammed said "kill he who changes his religion".

These peaceful, sufi, mystical like Muslims are of course a good thing. However they would be better of finding a more peaceful template.

From a theoological perspective you can't have an Islamic state without sharia and without harsh punishments. It's simply unIslamic. It's difficult to draw an anology since Islam really is unique in this respect.

All five major schools of Islamic thought agree the punsishment for leaving Islam is death.

TSurely this is impossible to reconcile with a peaceful, tolerant world view?

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Blogger jonz said...

And so the problem is that people like Sara, giving her the benefit of the doubt, of good heart and intentions, unintentionally may get exactly what she asks for - an Islamic state. But an Islamic state without Islamic punishments would not be Islamic!

I do feel for Muslims arond the world, millions who must be caught in this dichotomy by being peaceful and non-violent and against harsh punishments - yet if they read their texts thats exactly what Islam entails. Sad but true.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous alison said...

'All I have ever asked is treat women as if they are men without balls'.

quite. a bit of sodding balance. no man would expect to have his sexual history aired in public in a rape trial for example nor be denied a choice in contraception choices if he was the one carrying kids. why the hell should we? you are a right winger maggie, but you'd be surprised how many men might accuse you of being a outright feminist/misandrist and other such erm...bollocks.

this whole idea that womens rights is an exclusive thing for the left is a load of old rubbish. I hate how radical lefty feminists hijacked the whole agenda. but they do hail themselves as the champions of causes so where the hell are they supporting these women? and by support that *is* difficult i agree - but pushing the agenda for moderate voices, middle east women risking their lives...that sort of thing would not go amiss.

Tu:
An islamic state is what many women argued for against the Shah in Iran (i think im right in saying). I have to say im not sure where sara is coming from on that one myself but i hope that isnt what she means...

I made a post about this a month ago where an iranian american woman who campaigned for exactly that (an islamic state) regretted it so much (.. she was forced out of her university and into a veil, told she couldnt teach...etc) that she burned herself to death. Tragic. Im sure my blogging about it isnt making too much of a difference but i wish that we would stand up on these issues as much as some are inclined to march over Bush 'the Terrorist'.

 
At Friday, 08 December, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

here is where the argument starts and just goes on and on.

jonz.. no offense but you sometimes arent a very good listener. Your what I call a jumper, or in eastern philosophy a tiger personality... which is not an insult so don't go jumping.
I won't give resons I'll use an example.
Once sara talked about prositutes hanging out on her street. according to your view of an islamic state they would be rounded up taken away and stoned cause that what an extremist sharia law orders.... to her and her views they would be rounded up but not punished because in her dream of an Islamic state the government is also concerened for its future, the answer then would be more along the lines of educating these women, giving them carrers and goals. That benifts the future of the society.
And for every bad point in the Koran you or anyone else can point out I can offer something agaisnt it also from the Koran. goes along with what I already said.... stop re-enforcing and strenghting the negitives without ignoring the problem.

Allison don't think your post wouldnt make a difference it should serve as an example, the Islamic state they hoped for and got wasn't what they were promised. I can find several current situations following the same path ..... the IC in somolia and Hezbollah.
People are being lied to and religion is the lure used for pulling them into politics. Look at that Idiot in Iran now jumping in to call up support for hezbollah using the fight against "the great satan" as bait. Lebanon does not support Hezbollah!
We fall for the same lies and propaganda.
thank you for this conversation, I needed it, and I take back my apology for commenting.... I'm not sorry at all. :p

 
At Sunday, 10 December, 2006, Blogger jonz said...

Lebanon does not support Hezbollah!

Well in so much as Lebanon is country it in itself doesn not support or oppose Hizbollah.

However, things aren't looking so rosy I'm afraid Tu s Tin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6166135.stm

Hundreds of thousands of Lebanese are taking part in the latest protest to press the government to cede more power to the opposition or step down.

Led by Hezbollah and its pro-Syrian allies, the rally is possibly the largest demonstration Beirut has seen

 
At Sunday, 10 December, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

hope sucker

 
At Sunday, 10 December, 2006, Blogger jonz said...

err what?!

 
At Monday, 11 December, 2006, Anonymous Anonymous said...

you suck the hope out of everything.

 

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